Talking about your Miscarriage

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Okay, do you think that was people were in lockdown, they’ll be brave enough to do more things like home testing.

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I think being in lockdown is an ideal time to

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do more home testing because

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when you’re in lockdown, you’re kind of in limbo, you don’t really have the opportunity to do very much. But actually what you can do with home testing is find out so much about your fertility, and whether you need to start making some changes to lifestyle. And that’s why we’re really chuffed to have meditech sponsoring the fertility podcast because whether you’re trying to get healthy before getting pregnant, or investigating why you’ve not been getting pregnant meditech has a range of simple home blood tests developed with Kate to help you visit meditech.com to find out more.

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this area’s from the fertility podcast is talking about miscarriage.

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With staggering numbers of people affected daily by this, there’s still a silence around it, feelings of shame. Along with the grief there is the physical impact of loss. And we wanted to explore this further over the coming weeks with a number of conversations from experts. As well as people who have been through it. Unfortunately, there are so many reasons why miscarriage happens. Whether it be genetic or percenter problems,

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infection or long term health conditions you may suffer from or sometimes we just don’t know. We hope that by talking about it in this way, you will know that there is support and guidance available for you from groups, experts and organizations.

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To find out more about the support available, visit the fertility podcast comm forward slash miscarriage where there will be listing to the range of organizations available, as well as all of these episodes.

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Well, I’m delighted to be in the social chain podcast hub, with Katie Leeson, Managing Director of social change. Thank you for welcoming me into your I want to podcast Boockvar. Oh

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yeah, we’ve got super like velvety soft seat. Yeah, it’s like my second home in here.

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But thank you so much. I’m excited to talk.

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Well, I heard you talk. I’ve been following your podcast for a while. And I heard you talk at pods up north, where I’d always also been talking about getting personal for the podcast, and it was quite apps because you stood up and then touched on the getting personal aspect, which is what we’re going to be talking about in a moment. But before that, I just want to congratulate you on your award nomination,

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which is a

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an award for leading the charge and pushing the boundaries.

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Yeah, I’m very proud to be here. It’s with its four campaign, which is in the media marketing world. It’s our three bit yeah, so I am incredibly proud to be nominated. And it’s a testament to the work that we’ve been doing here and from putting me out there a little bit more and social chain allowing me the space to do that. So very proud moment

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and considering you just said putting you out there. When you spoke about the podcast that we’re going to talk about the episode that we’re going to talk about and also The work that you’re doing putting yourself out there, I was quite surprised from what I’ve kind of listened from you and read about you that it was a bit of a battle for you to do it. And that vulnerability. I’m keen to explore a bit because I’ve been podcasting for five years about fertility, and I’ve shared at times, quite personal stuff. And I’ve had to self protect. And I’m keen as to whether on this journey you’ve got better at self protecting.

3:32
Yes, I think I over self protected when I started right in the way that I just refused to do anything. So in terms of my personal brand, and the whole journey, I kind of knew that I was in a position of that not many of the people had been in before in terms of being a young female Managing Director. And I struggled with that, and I think I’ve talked about quite a lot, but I found that I had imposter syndrome. And I discovered that through my therapy sessions, and that was my way And I knew that if I got up and talked about luck, I’m an imposter. Everyone else then who also suffers would also feel a bit comforted by that. And I’m also a massive believer in, you can’t be what you can’t see. And I didn’t really have many female role models to look up to when I started my career, and I didn’t know where I could get to. So I felt really like I had a duty. So the fear of doing it was put to one side when I saw the responses that I was getting from just putting my head a little bit above the parapet, and then it strengthened me in to do more. But with regards to my own, like journey in terms of my miscarriage, which we’ll we’ll sure will touch on, I put that off for a while. I made sure that I was mentally prepared to talk about it, but even then it was still a massive leap of faith for me to talk about it in the public sphere because I had no idea what what the reaction would be and I didn’t know whether people would tell me that it’s not the right place or platform or I’m not the right person to talk about it, but I just thought if I can help one person by vocalizing what I’ve been through, and it helped me as well, which is,

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well, I’m gonna ask you more about the reaction, but we’re talking at the start of 2020. And this is part of a miscarriage series that we’ve been putting together talking about miscarriage and baby loss and getting the expert kind of side as well as the personal story. And if I’m right in the timeline, you shared your story for baby loss Awareness Week in October 2019. And you were talking about experience. I have the Christmas before so December 2018. Yeah. And that time of year when everybody’s together. I’m interested in whether that time of year was a hinderance or a help because on the one hand, you got everybody there, your loved ones. On the other hand, I know you talked about having to talk about what was going on.

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It’s a funny time of year when you find out that you are pregnant at that time anyway, because even before I had any issues, I was going out seeing all my friends and I was getting together and you Have a drink or a few drinks, and I couldn’t. So it kind of forced me into telling people that I was pregnant before I actually was ready to I think, and before the 12 weeks, so I told all my family told all my friends, because I knew that I’d be put in a situation that I had to kind of answer to. So they all knew, but then I actually had the found out that I had miscarried on Christmas Eve, which again, so not only have I told everyone before the time because I kind of had to, I then was in a position where I had to tell everyone on Christmas Eve, because I didn’t want to get a load of messages wishing me the best Christmas a new year because I was going to have a baby in the next year. So after them felt like I was partly ruining their Christmas because I’d tell them such sad news. And then also, just going through the motions, I don’t even like got I’ve got no feelings about Christmas. 2019 because I kinda just went with it. I just, it was just 2018 Yeah, good. 2019 Great 2018 I kind of just went with the flow. And yeah, I could I couldn’t really tell you what happened. I think it was just more like I was observing myself in the moment rather than feeling much. Okay. Because when

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you shared your episode, you were interviewing Ruth Bader lattic, from the miscarriage Association, amazing woman, she is amazing. And you were, at that point talking about not getting too personal about how you felt on what you went through. And we had a bit of a chat before we started because I always very kind of keen to stress that this is totally, you know, as much or as little as you want to talk about. And time has passed since that conversation. And now you said that you’re feeling better. And so are you happy to talk about what said, your apps when you lost when you had them?

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Yeah, yeah, cause and I think one of the reasons why I was a little bit more protective was that I’m now a lot no longer with the father of the baby. So I was also trying to protect him a little bit because I didn’t tell him that I was going to do it. He can’t knew that I wanted to because of the platform that I had. But I also didn’t want to just go out there and start talking about something that was personal towards. But we’ve since we’ve spoken, so I’m quite happy to talk about it. I was nine weeks pregnant, and a few weeks before so about six, nearly seven weeks, I’d started spotting. And I went to the hospital and they did a scan and they found the heartbeat and said, everything was fine. And the nurses said to me at the time, they said, actually, if if we can hear a heartbeat and we found it, everything’s usually fine and usually all right after that, but then the bleeding didn’t stop. I went to my first meeting with the midwife and told her that I was still bleeding and they were like, Oh, no, it’s fine. Everything should be all right. Sometimes it just happens bit blahs a about and then it got to Christmas Eve but there was a lot more that I was experiencing in terms of blood loss. And it was that point I thought something’s not right and also as the feelings that I was having. So like breast tenderness and tiredness and all that sort of my symptoms have kind of gone away a little bit. So I knew something wasn’t right. And then when I got there and had the scan on Christmas Eve, they said that I’d actually lost the baby at about seven weeks. It didn’t grow past seven weeks, that bedside

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manner that you experienced. I mean, you’ve used the word blahs a Do you think it was totally lacking with the some people that seem to be a bit more sympathetic towards you? Or was it just a this is okay, or this is just what happens type

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attitude was that it was exactly the latter. The first person that I really felt had any sort of real empathy was after I’d had, so I miscarried naturally, so I was booked in for the operation. And fortunately, or unfortunately, because it’s a horrific experience. I miscarried. Naturally the day before I was due to be put under for the operation. And I waited around in the hospital and I had a scan just to check that everything was okay. And that was the first the scan. The lady that did the scan was the first person that I really felt a good connection to someone who really cared and she said you look healthy. Everything there on the scan looks healthy. You’ve you’ve just started an unfortunate experience, there was just a problem with that egg or that sperm, and you should be fine and I can’t wait to see you again. And that was the first person in that whole journey that I really felt had a personal connection. Everything else just felt a bit like

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you would have just expected to get on with it. Yeah,

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that’s hard to hear but unfortunately common.

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Yes. Yeah. Oh, it was the aftercare as well was really really hard. So I was in town when I was experiencing the symptoms on Christmas Eve. So me and my partner went to St. Mary’s bought my scans and everything was booked in first step in hell. So they told me at St. Mary’s that I’d lost the baby, but then didn’t communicate with Stephen Hill. Because I was at nine weeks I went away for New Year got back and I the letter on my doorstep about having the scan. Not only that they then were ringing my partner, but then wouldn’t speak to him because they got the numbers wrong on the phone. So they rang him wouldn’t they asked for me wouldn’t talk to him.

11:05
He wouldn’t even be gatekeeper for, you know.

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So then I had to ring by then answering the doctors, the midwife, the hospital, I spoke to two people at the hospital and two different midwives. So I think it was about five conversations in one day where I had to have the same conversation over and over again. And every time the same response, every time I got the same response, it was like, Oh, it’s awful. But on Christmas Eve, that’s even worse. And I’m

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like, I know, and I’m reliving it every time every time. Yeah, this support with this is something that I know you spoke with Ruth in the miscarriage Association. And we’ve spoken with Zoe Clark’s coats from saying goodbye to different charities who both offer support, because there’s so many people who aren’t dealt with properly as the wrong way to say but aren’t spoken to properly in the bait most basic terms and to even have somebody say to you, a miscarriage happens because of a chromosomal abnormality There’s something wrong. It’s not your fault. Yeah, I know from the people that I’ve had conversation with is like the biggest lift to know that it’s not your fault. And that’s such a simple or it might not be a simple situation. It’s a straightforward piece of information to give to somebody in your position that could help at that moment. And I’m interested in whether then that maybe that did show you the empathy whether she offered any signposting for support. No, there was nothing I didn’t know about the miscarriage Association. There was nothing I’ve had no follow up. It was only through doing the research because I knew that I’d gone through something that I wanted to help other people with that we found roof. So that no, there was absolutely nothing. So you chose to go and find some supports. Yeah. At the point that you’re in the midst of of grief for did you let yourself kind of heal a bit and you talked about your therapist, I know it’s something that you do regularly. Yeah,

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I hadn’t seen my therapist for a while and I was kind of I don’t know why battling through it. I think I didn’t tell work for a while. You’re in that moment. At that time, all I wanted to do was replace what I’d lost. So I got a bit, I’m not ashamed to say I got a bit obsessed with just replacing the baby that I’d lost and trying again, even though now looking back, that wasn’t the right thing to do. And but obviously that was the grief. And I didn’t want to tell work that I was going through something so horrific, because then they might think that I’m just going to go off in a few months time and have a baby and then they’d be lost without the buy out their MD. So I was in a really, really hard dilemma. It took me to break in point to actually tell most people because I kept it in and that was the worst thing that I could do and if that so I had the miscarriage on Christmas Eve and it was Easter when I broke,

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right at work or at home at work. Okay, so you lost your shirt.

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Yeah, I really did. I’d taken a few days off for Easter. At that point, I had told Stephen Dom the founders, and I don’t know why I was worried because they’re amazing. And they massively helped me. And they understood and they were very supportive as much as they can because it’s unless you’ve gone through, it’s quite hard, but I just completely burst burst into tears on the phone to Dom when I was. I just couldn’t cope. I couldn’t cope with other people’s problems not. But that’s part of my job is like managing issues and sorting things out. Yeah. But in that moment, and at that time, I couldn’t physically take on anyone else’s stresses and strains because I couldn’t deal with my own.

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And you had told some of your family and friends that had happened before. Obviously, titling work. So was there any anyone there that you were talking stuff through any of your friends that had been through it that could give you any? So there was nobody that you were talking to that could say, I thought that I thought that No,

14:52
okay. Yeah, I was kind of a bit of a pain because I’m very determined. So I was just determined just to carry on And I’m a bit of a if I don’t want to talk about something, I’ll just put a wall up and then people know not to ask me. So I didn’t do myself any favors. But yeah, it was around Easter time that I then started seeing Karen, my therapist about it, okay. And she just helped me with the grief. And that was just a massive help, massive hope.

15:18
Because that allowing yourself to grieve with this when it’s something that you don’t even, especially if it wasn’t even planned, and it’s something that’s common and has gone as quick as it’s come on most. And there’s just all the different emotions with it, that you just don’t know how to process and then you feel bad for feeling bad and all that, like you’ve just said, beat yourself up about not doing your job. So she gave you that permission.

15:39
Yes, she did. She helped me to grieve. And she helped me understand what I needed to do to cope with it as well. And yeah, made me feel like I was okay to talk about it. Yeah. And it was at that point. I am I’m still on antidepressants. I went to the doctors and they gave me antidepressants, and I’m still on them and I’m so grateful for them because the anxiety that was experience And just not feeling myself was just so hard. And just having that extra boost from something was been so, so helpful.

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How misunderstood? Do you feel the impact of miscarriage is

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massive, massive, because I don’t think even I would have thought about it without going through it. Because it’s different for every person. And that’s what I got from Ruth was that miscarriage affects people in different ways. Some people feel relieved, some people feel absolutely distraught. And for me, as you said, it wasn’t mine wasn’t planned, and it wasn’t something that I was expecting. I felt guilty about feeling sad about something that I didn’t even think that I wanted at that point. So it was getting my head around that. Okay, because you always think someone else is in a worse position than you. But yeah, it’s the impact on your body, the impact on your hormones, the impact on your mental health is huge. And I don’t think there’s enough done to understand that That pressure because we are told we’re not meant to talk about being pregnant in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

17:05
Well, that’s a whole conversation in itself. And I’m hoping that because there is more conversation about it, this isn’t necessary. It’s something that we talked about that, you know, why do we hide this thing, and it used to be for the chance of something going wrong. But then, as I think you said, when you spoke with Ruth, you were grateful for the support from the people that you had told,

17:27
yeah, I was just knowing that they knew that I was going through something rather than having someone who had been through something similar, but just having messages checking in and things like that. I don’t think I could have got through it. If I hadn’t told anyone that I was pregnant. I don’t how are you meant to put on a brave face and carry on like everything’s okay. Yeah.

17:44
Well, one of the things that I’m really passionate about is the conversation being taken into work when it comes to preconception care, and it’s a project that I’m working to kind of raise awareness of fertility matters at work, and you said He told work. And we’re like, delighted with how they supported you. And I know you mentioned some of the different things that you’ve got in place here. JOHN, just tell me a bit more about what you’ve got, and then the spread how you’ve utilized it.

18:11
Yeah, of course. So we have therapists that we use, and we let people see Karen, if and when they need it. So I’ve been seeing Karen probably for about two and a half years about different things in different challenges that I face. Honestly, it’s changed my life, I never would have thought therapy would have been for me, but just stepping out my comfort zone and talking to someone just helped me see my path a little bit differently. It’s been an absolute godsend, and I feel like a much better person fraught for that. But we’ve just started doing opt out mental health as well for everybody because we know it’s such a big step to actually say, I think I need to talk to someone that we now have once a quarter everyone is opted into a session with a therapist, whether that is nutrition or whether that’s talking therapy, or any other type of therapy, and then you have to tell us that you don’t want Otherwise, you’ve got to have it

19:02
quite like that. Because we’re the worst sometimes aren’t we are putting ourselves up for those types of things. And in terms of the kind of the happiness and the focus, the necessity of there being kind of written policies in place or something that you said that you are thinking of doing. I’m kind of terming it in a preconception care you were talking about, maybe it being a kind of miscarriage policy, but there’s such a lack of understanding so often in the corporate space. And so often, you know, you talked about the worry you had about not doing your job properly. And I know you’ve got a podcast that you just put out about the particularly women that the worries that we have about not being able to do our job, not saying that men don’t, but I think it’s less and especially when it’s us physically affected, you’re more physically I should say affected by these things. What would you like to see in terms of that conversation in that narrative in the workplace?

19:52
I think, yeah, we are looking into how we can build miscarriage or something in that turret like term mainly because of the experience I’ve been through, I want to try and make it a bit more universal because I can only talk from my experience and how I want things to be better in the world about having policies in place to protect people. One thing I’m very proud of in here is our openness and our understanding of people and their individual lives. And I think that’s what we need is like workplaces to really understand that different people are on different journeys. And it’s not that we should just ignore it that we should all be there and open and be able to talk about what you’re going through. Because otherwise it’s going to impact your work. And I think that’s part of an issue, a bigger issue. In terms of mental health. We see such a benefit from people seeing the therapists. So if we can translate that into a facility option of conversation, then I think it’s going to be beneficial for everybody.

20:52
In terms of the reaction around you sharing your story in your podcast,

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how was that I was petrified. And that was One of the reasons that it took me till October to do it and I was it was the baby loss awareness week that I was really grateful happened in October because I could tie it in for a reason. Because one thing I was really worried about was the reaction to me putting out what is known as a business podcast. But talking about something that had happened to me that isn’t really talked about, and also my biggest platform into my personal brand is on LinkedIn. So we put it out on LinkedIn as a promo for the podcast, and I was really nervous about the reaction to that. We recorded it. And it went out on the same day that I was in London recording to on the podcast with guests. So I didn’t know the reaction until I finished recording the podcast. And I picked up my phone, and I just saw hundreds of messages from people just either like in the content or offering words of support. Tell me how amazing it was that I talked about it and I just sobbed. I was really Dodds, who’s the producer of the podcast, and I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed because it was like a release of knowing that it was okay to talk about. I only had two messages that were like, I don’t think we should talk about this on LinkedIn. Which of which I went back to which were all from old man. I was just about to say was it for men, and I didn’t. And it was it was two older gentleman who had an opinion that LinkedIn wasn’t the place that I should be talking about. Something like that. So I just went back with a little rebuttal that said, is don’t think LinkedIn is a wonderful place for raising awareness of a charity that is so important. They didn’t reply again. So fun. And the thing that was really amazing was people are the people reacting to their message and supporting me. Yeah, but in general, everyone else has been super positive. And the messages that I received privately majority were from men who’ve been through the miscarriage journey, right? And just saying that they are on it, and they’ve been through it and How important is that someone talks about it. So

23:03
that’s interesting that it was predominantly men on LinkedIn on LinkedIn as well. Did you have

23:07
it was a mixture? No, it was all it was all a mixture. But to be honest, I think the personal messages were more for men to say thank you for talking about it.

23:15
I think there’s no end to the kind of the ripple effect of something like this. And I don’t know whether you then had personal conversation with friends that said that they’d been through it is something that in time I’ve been doing my podcast every time I tell somebody what the podcast is about, which is an essence to educate and empower people on their steps to build their families and to help them know, options. If things aren’t going well. Somebody has always got someone that is dealing with something. And I know from talking about this particular niche topic for five years that there’s so many people that need the support of it. And that episode, I don’t know what you know, numbers wise, you know, it compares to others. But any conversations about this that we can put out on a more public platform, it’s only going to help let you say if it has One person. Yeah. And I know when you spoke with Ruth, you talked, both of you talks about fertility education. And again, it’s something that I’m passionate about. And I, I was interested if you had thought or could think about how that might look, you know, take yourself to school back to school, when we were only told about not getting pregnant, the focus is so on. This is what you do to not get pregnant, told how biology works, but really how not to get pregnant, and how you would have felt and how best because social teams obviously quite a young, dynamic organization. How, speaking about this type of thing to a younger audience?

24:34
What’s the best way to do it? Oh, that’s a good question. I definitely think there needs to be more. I think for me, this was my first experience. I’d never been pregnant before. I’d never experienced anything like that. So and I’m 36 this year, so for me, it was like, oh my god. So there was the whole balance of as a woman, you’re told that you should start thinking about it as soon as you can because you’re going to get older then you’re not going to have it If you do have a child later, you might have some. They might have issues, you might have problems. And so there’s always that in the back of my mind. So even though my pregnancy was a surprise, I was like, right, well, it’s now my time because I’m getting old.

25:13
And at least I can get pregnant, and at least I can hear no other people said to you,

25:16
yes. not helpful. Yeah. And I also thought that though, because it was the first time that I had experienced it. And as I say, getting older, it’s something that does play on my mind a little bit. But in terms of school. Yeah, I just think there needs to be more in the fact that it normalizing it because it’s so common, like one in four early pregnancies end in miscarriage. And that is such a high statistic.

25:41
And some of the stats that I’ve since learned it’s something like 700 people a day in the UK, going through this. Yeah. And that’s the people that we know about, yeah, actually go to a hospital or a doctor and have it registered.

25:52
Well, it blew my mind when I went to the hospital when I was due for the operation and how many other women they had a full day booked in for those operations. And that is one of what three options that you can take in terms of health after miscarriage. There were so many women in that day. And it’s just, it’s really sad that it’s not normalized. And I think that’s what spurred me on a little bit more. If schools can educate in the fact that these things happen, and it’s normal, then you I think I would have felt a lot better about it. Because from even the lady that the scan lady, you said, this is why it’s happened, but you find and everything looks healthy. I felt so relieved after that. But until that point, yeah, until that point, I had no clue.

26:35
What would you say to somebody listening, who, first of all know somebody who has just gone through this? And then I want to ask you what you would say to somebody listening who themselves is dealing with this?

26:48
Yeah, I think if you know someone who’s going through it, just be as normal as you can, but also just check in. It doesn’t have to be a big song and dance, just attack. Every now and again just to let them know that you think enough of them and also ask them how they want to deal with it because everyone deals with it in a very different way and just be a bit more attuned to their behaviors because I think I hid away for quite a while about it, and just pretended everything was fine. So try and just really monitor their behavior whether they’ve gone a bit more insular and you don’t see them and things like that. And it is difficult because everyone handles it differently. But I can’t find my friends and phibian support system that I needed in the moment without having to talk about it. Just by being there and and helping me and then for someone who’s going through it know that you’re not alone and it feels so lonely. It feels like the most isolating experience you can ever have bought to know that you’re not alone. And know that it is a common thing. And a scary as it is you will be okay after it. You just need to manage all of the emotion and all the hormones and everything else. And it’s not nice for a few months after it takes time, it takes a lot of time takes time for your body to readjust as well. So know that it’s not an instant fix, you don’t just go back to normal straightaway.

28:15
And the whole point of this kind of video series is to kind of highlight where the support is, which we will be doing at the end of the episode and in the show notes. Before that, you go crazy. It’s been it’s been really lovely. getting the chance to talk to us about it, and how can you be so honest and open about it? Because, like we said at the start, I know you’ve taken the time to decide as and when he wants to talk about it. This is not related to the topic, but something that we started to do on the podcast where we want to know something about you that not very many people know, as

28:47
random as you like, Oh, okay. I can do this. It’s hard because I put so much out now. But when I was 17 I did work at experience at the BBC on watchdog, the program watchdog. And I was in the little mailroom and I was answering questions answering people’s like sending comp slips back to people after they’ve sent in their letters because it was before the time of shows order, before the time when everyone used to tweet or send emails. And I was looking at something and I looked down and it was loaded powder that had come from what looked like one of the envelopes. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god. And it was around the time when I’m Thrax was such a barrier. And I was like, Oh my god, someone sent anthrax through the post. And we’re now in this tiny little mail room and I don’t know what to do. So me and this other girl ran out, like, we kind of need someone to look at what’s what we found. Panic ensued, and I got the whole of the BBC shut down. Everyone had to leave. We couldn’t leave. These men in these massive suits came in to check out the wall it was and we closed the BBC down for quite a while and it actually turned out to be printing powder from the UK. From the day, I know but but if I did, but yeah, the panic that was just caused by the fact that I thought that there was an apprentice where you were your suspect. Yeah, I got no no it wasn’t that tense but oh my god that was stressful. So yeah, I’ve closed the BBC down for a little while quite.

30:17
It’s quite good dining out store. I say thank you for your time. It’s been everything. Thank you so much.

30:26
We know there’s probably going to be a lot of information here that has got you thinking so be sure to visit the fertility podcast comm forward slash miscarriage where we will be listing links to all the different organizations were mentioning, as well as the different episodes within this series. And of course, you can follow us online. I’m at fertility body, I’m at your fertility journey. And just remember, we’re here You’re so not alone. If this episode has been helpful to you in any way, please do rate review, subscribe and share so we can keep the momentum going and how other people find out this podcast and hopefully help them like it’s helped you. Thank you until the next time

Transcribed by https://otter.ai